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neilwilkes

Posted at 2021-10-22 15:57:55(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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I am absolutely staggered that nobody has written a word about the forthcoming Toy release & the Era 5 Box Set.
I know I am really excited about finally getting Toy officially - it shows the Mark Plati file leak was an early set of mixes really clearly (listening now to 'Karma Man/Silly Boy Blue' (Alternative Ending Mix) and 'You've Got A Habit Of Leaving' (2021 Radio Edit) in glorious 24/96, and it is really interesting - especially as 'Karma Man' was not in the leaked version.

For those who are unaware - here is the tracklisting:
1 - 'Brilliant Adventures' (Era 5 Box Set) version

I Dig Everything
You've Got A Habit Of Leaving
The London Boys
Karma Man
Conversation Piece
Shadow Man
Let Me Sleep Beside You
Hole In The Ground
Baby Loves That Way
Can't Help Thinking About Me
Silly Boy Blue
Toy (Your Turn To Drive)

2 - 3CD/6x10" LP version:
CD/LP 1
I Dig Everything
You've Got A Habit Of Leaving
The London Boys
Karma Man
Conversation Piece
Shadow Man
Let Me Sleep Beside You
Hole In The Ground
Baby Loves That Way
Can't Help Thinking About Me
Silly Boy Blue
Toy (Your Turn To Drive)

CD/LP 2 Alternatives & Extras
Liza Jane
You've Got A Habit of Leaving (alternative mix) *
Baby Loves That Way (alternative mix) *
Can't Help Thinking About Me (alternative mix)
I Dig Everything (alternative mix)
The London Boys (alternative version)
Silly Boy Blue (Tibet version)
Let Me Sleep Beside You (alternative mix) *
In The Heat Of The Morning
Conversation Piece (alternative mix) *
Hole In The Ground (alternative mix)
Shadow Man (alternative mix) *
Toy (Your Turn To Drive) (alternative mix) *
(* = Previously released)

CD/LP 3 Unplugged & Somewhat Slightly Electric
In The Heat Of The Morning (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
I Dig Everything (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
You've Got A Habit of Leaving (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
The London Boys (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Karma Man (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Conversation Piece (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Shadow Man (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Let Me Sleep Beside You (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Hole In The Ground (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Baby Loves That Way (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Can't Help Thinking About Me (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Silly Boy Blue (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)
Toy (Your Turn To Drive) (Unplugged & somewhat slightly electric mix)

Now let's look at the tracklist on the bootlegs:
Uncle Floyd
Afraid
Baby Loves That Way
I Dig Everything
Conversation Piece
Let Me Sleep Beside You
Toy (Your Turn To Drive)
Hole In The Ground
Shadow Man
In The Heat Of The Morning
You've Got a Habit Of Leaving
Silly Boy Blue
Liza Jane
The London Boys

No 'Uncle Floyd', 'Afraid', 'In The Heat Of The Morning' or 'Liza Jane' in the main album (although the latter 2 are on the alternates & extras set) but 'Uncle Floyd' & 'Afraid' are nowhere to be seen on any of the official versions.

When we look at the leaked versions (which are all from the same source, even the Italian one from 2020 which says it is from analogue tape - as far as I am aware the tape was cassette tape, so 1 7/8IPS and has been massaged - from the cassette files the bass is so heavily boosted it's not funny and when playing back in a DAW it actually clips as the Inter Sample Peaks are north of 0dBFS, and the Italian CD version is brickwalled to within an inch of it's life too. It is definitely, and I guarantee this 100%, from the same original source as all the rest despite the claims made in marketing (Yup, I fell for it too & bought the CD version) and I suspect that it was simply dumped to cassette tape & then re-digitized as the base is still cutting off at 254Kbps MP3 - 16kHz - with some minor spikes that suggest someone ran this through some form of exciter or harmonic generator.
Oddly enough, The Godfather version is not limited for volume at all - not only are no transients shaved at all, but there is even some headroom. Top Marks for that.
Moving swiftly on to the 'Lego Version' we again have a release that has not been brickwalled for volume like the rest.
We finally come to the 4CD set 'A Lot Of Toys' which is a really nice collection. Mostly stuff we already have but really cool to have them all in one collection plus again we see that there is no brickwalling for volume (although in places the compression is heavy but it is a bootleg compilation so you take your chances)

So - who else will be springing for this one?

Steveboy

Posted at 2021-10-22 22:07:10(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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My thought just on the Uncle Floyd track this became Slip Away and appeared on Heathen as did Afraid, so they may be held back for the next box I think.

I will be buying it [CD Format and maybe 24/96 versions] but not overwhelmed by the issue. Would have liked to have seen Leon in the release but maybe there waiting on an Outside 30 years anniversary box set. But doubt it.

Steveboy

Last edited by Steveboy on 2021-10-23 10:04:02

NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS

homebrew

Posted at 2021-10-22 22:36:07(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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I've written about it more than once. IMO Toy sucks. I downloaded it when it first leaked and thought it was awful and said then as I say now, no wonder David shelved this project.

I will not be buying the era five box set (vinyl) even though a record store owner offered to get it for me for $350. The reasons are that Toy is already scheduled to get its own release after the first of the year so it does not need to be in this box. I did not like the Re:Call collections from the first 4 boxes and four discs of Re:Call in this box is for me, four discs too many but they could have reduced it to 2 discs like some of the previous era sets.

This box is too bloated and too expensive. Cut the fat and reduce the cost to below $300 and I couldn't have got my money out of my wallet fast enough. At $400 this box is a bridge too far.

Last edited by homebrew on 2021-10-23 18:45:02

""I don't begrudge any artist for finding an audience"
- David Bowie abt. 1987

attfield	Posted at 2021-10-23 01:18:49(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 334.14 GB Downloaded: 159.02 GB Posts: 36 Ratio: 2.10 Location: Australia	Toy will be Bowie's worst album for me for sure. I'll maybe make it through once, but the leak was largely bad music, and what was good has been left off.

bowiebingo	Posted at 2021-10-23 07:50:09(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 22.84 GB Downloaded: 6.03 GB Posts: 64 Ratio: 3.79 Location: United Kingdom	Not his worst album for me, but it's down the list. Very few of the versions on it (which can tend towards croony schmalz) are improvements on the originals. Nice idea, mediocre execution. No problem at all with the price of the CDs. Vinyl = shooting yourself in the foot!

bowie78	Posted at 2021-10-23 12:11:56(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 10.00 GB Downloaded: 0.00 B Posts: 132 Ratio: Inf. Location: England	its interesting as to different collectors tastes,some only collect specific items or periods,some collect it all,i for example concentrate from the 78 tour,but like to dip into other periods...but not TOY.

V2David

Posted at 2021-10-23 18:03:20(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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I agree with Steveboy. I think the real gem from this era would be the Outside Sessions. While I understand that's not how these box sets work, I hope that this material gets an official release one day. As for Toy, there is a good reason this wasn't released. I think Shadow Man is superb, but this was already officially released. Would have been interested in Uncle Floyd, but it's nowhere to be seen. The excellent live stuff has already been released on Brilliant Live Adventures. So there really isn't much for the rest of us collectors who already own this material a zillion times.

GwonamLord	Posted at 2021-10-23 19:33:58(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 161.37 GB Downloaded: 3.92 TB Posts: 79 Ratio: 0.04 Location: Germany	Really looking forward to Toy. It's no masterpiece, but an enjoyable listen IMO.

professormouse

Posted at 2021-10-24 06:43:34(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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The chosen image for the Toy 'album' is likely to put many off.
People are quoting from a Facebook article to defend it but even that points out it was another piccy that actually won some print contest.
A zero % extra they could have included was the promo disc of the hours demos/instrumentals/acapellas ?
A mint copy original of Outside just now is just over €500 it's aimed a people who don't really want swirly blue.
Toy in complete form I expect will happen some day in a different cover too.
A year and a half of arguing with the official suppliers has put me right off buying anything.
The contents I'm not knocking just the artwork, track selection and the promotion.

Last edited by professormouse on 2021-10-24 06:44:53

willb3d	Posted at 2021-10-24 23:56:36(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 282.57 GB Downloaded: 248.75 GB Posts: 109 Ratio: 1.14 Location: United States of America	Didn’t feel a need to comment on Toy because it is an instant-buy for me!

professormouse	Posted at 2021-10-25 03:25:36(129 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 210.68 GB Downloaded: 110.55 GB Posts: 261 Ratio: 1.91 Location: United Kingdom	From the (ho-ho) 'lossless' vinyl and two 'silver' CD plus a 'cassette version', I made my own version long ago. With a better cover.

neilwilkes

Posted at 2021-12-13 16:37:05(122 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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professormouse wrote:

From the (ho-ho) 'lossless' vinyl and two 'silver' CD plus a 'cassette version', I made my own version long ago.With a better cover.

Yeah - I was gulled by that one too, and like the fool I can be I bought the vinyl & the CD version only to discover that
A - 'lossless' analogue tape is a lie - someone took the MP3 versions we all have, copied to a cassette tape & then had vinyl & CD's done from that after re-digitizing it. Spectral Analysis does not lie, and the better bootleg version is either the Lego one or the Godfather version (I cannot call it a 'leaked' version because it was literally stolen off Plati's laptop IIRC and a 'leak' implies it was deliberately let out when this is simply not the case, and
B - the 'Italian' version under discussion is perhaps the most aggressively limited version available.
It's horrendously bad.

CosmicJive

Posted at 2022-01-05 11:54:33(119 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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neilwilkes wrote:

professormouse wrote:

From the (ho-ho) 'lossless' vinyl and two 'silver' CD plus a 'cassette version', I made my own version long ago.With a better cover.

Yeah - I was gulled by that one too, and like the fool I can be I bought the vinyl & the CD version only to discover thatA - 'lossless' analogue tape is a lie - someone took the MP3 versions we all have, copied to a cassette tape & then had vinyl & CD's done from that after re-digitizing it. Spectral Analysis does not lie, and the better bootleg version is either the Lego one or the Godfather version (I cannot call it a 'leaked' version because it was literally stolen off Plati's laptop IIRC and a 'leak' implies it was deliberately let out when this is simply not the case, andB - the 'Italian' version under discussion is perhaps the most aggressively limited version available.It's horrendously bad.

It’s an urban myth that the songs were stolen from Plati's laptop. A band that was working with Plati around 2005 got the files. Their singer liked some of the bands Plati was mixing at the time and asked him if it was ok to copy some of the mp3 from Plati's mix downs folder on his computer. Which Plati gave an ok on. Amongst these files were the Toy tracks and some live stuff from the Heathen tour (intended for possible bsides) and 2000 bnet show ( videos released on bowienet) that Plati mixed. The singer then shared the Toy tracks with some of his friends who he knew were Bowiefans like myself. I actually had the live tracks too, but since I don't like those tours I deleted them after a listen way back in 2006.

Cow47	Posted at 2022-01-06 20:22:02(119 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 191.35 GB Downloaded: 729.05 GB Posts: 19 Ratio: 0.26 Location: United States of America	What were the live tracks? Have they surfaced elsewhere?

neilwilkes

Posted at 2022-01-07 09:24:37(119 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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CosmicJive wrote:

neilwilkes wrote:

professormouse wrote:

From the (ho-ho) 'lossless' vinyl and two 'silver' CD plus a 'cassette version', I made my own version long ago.With a better cover.

Yeah - I was gulled by that one too, and like the fool I can be I bought the vinyl & the CD version only to discover thatA - 'lossless' analogue tape is a lie - someone took the MP3 versions we all have, copied to a cassette tape & then had vinyl & CD's done from that after re-digitizing it. Spectral Analysis does not lie, and the better bootleg version is either the Lego one or the Godfather version (I cannot call it a 'leaked' version because it was literally stolen off Plati's laptop IIRC and a 'leak' implies it was deliberately let out when this is simply not the case, andB - the 'Italian' version under discussion is perhaps the most aggressively limited version available.It's horrendously bad.

That's interesting - I never knew that, and was gulled by the myth.
That'll learn me.

Never knew about the 2000 BowieNet show - I thought that was done in 1999 ('What's Really Happening' is the title I have for it) but that one may be something entirely different.
I also thought the Heathen tour was 2002, but again I may well be mistaken.
We live and learn.....

CosmicJive

Posted at 2022-01-07 13:21:53(118 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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neilwilkes wrote:

CosmicJive wrote:

neilwilkes wrote:

professormouse wrote:

From the (ho-ho) 'lossless' vinyl and two 'silver' CD plus a 'cassette version', I made my own version long ago.With a better cover.

Yeah - I was gulled by that one too, and like the fool I can be I bought the vinyl & the CD version only to discover thatA - 'lossless' analogue tape is a lie - someone took the MP3 versions we all have, copied to a cassette tape & then had vinyl & CD's done from that after re-digitizing it. Spectral Analysis does not lie, and the better bootleg version is either the Lego one or the Godfather version (I cannot call it a 'leaked' version because it was literally stolen off Plati's laptop IIRC and a 'leak' implies it was deliberately let out when this is simply not the case, andB - the 'Italian' version under discussion is perhaps the most aggressively limited version available.It's horrendously bad.

That's interesting - I never knew that, and was gulled by the myth. That'll learn me.Never knew about the 2000 BowieNet show - I thought that was done in 1999 ('What's Really Happening' is the title I have for it) but that one may be something entirely different.I also thought the Heathen tour was 2002, but again I may well be mistaken.We live and learn.....

I should've been more clear, the singer got access to the files in 2005 from a session with Plati. Some of the mp3 mixdowns were of course older. I guess Plati himself would listen to those mp3s. He was very proud of Toy. He also thought the Heathen reworkings of the Toy tracks weren't as good as the originals. One of the comments he made was 'Visconti tries to fix everything by adding strings' (referring to Afraid).

neilwilkes

Posted at 2022-01-10 10:04:42(118 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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The album does sound great - I really like it.
Most of the leaked versions are included in the Toy:BOX release however (there are some that are still missing of course, and Ruud has done a superb runthrough of what is available at the illustrated db discography site (which is a superb resource) at the link below
http://www.illustrated-db-discography.nl/forum/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5845

Plati did a good job, yes - I definitely agree - but he should never have let those files out (I would not do anything like that to one of my clients) - even though personally I am very pleased that he did (somewhat hypocritically of me true, but I have never pretended to be consistent).

BabyGraceBlue

Posted at 2022-01-27 09:14:11(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)

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I think the Toy:Box release was a really positive surprise! And it sounds exceptionally good (That goes for Brilliant Adventure too, obviously). As far as I am concerned I believe these masters will go down as the definite masters of this era releases.

And interestingly enough, I found the bonus disks, #2 and #3, to be a lot better than I expected them to be. Maybe especially #3.
I suspect that one to be the disk most often played at my place.

Last edited by BabyGraceBlue on 2022-01-27 09:15:43

Steveboy	Posted at 2022-01-27 14:46:55(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: 4.17 TB Downloaded: 1.08 TB Posts: 992 Ratio: 3.87 Location: United Kingdom	A lot of people I have spoken to also prefer Disc 3. I love it Steveboy NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC WANTED FRANKFURT 1976 1978 REHEARSALS

V2David	Posted at 2022-01-27 15:08:33(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / No love for Toy? How weird!!)
Uploaded: --- Downloaded: --- Posts: 20 Ratio: --- Location: United States of America	Disc 3 is frankly how it should have been done to begin with. Sometimes these things take a little longer to cook. But I guess David moved on to Heathen (which was superb). I sometimes wonder what would have happened with Reality had David had a little more time to work on it. I believe someone said it was rushed as they wanted to get it out before the tour.

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