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Bowie General > 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???

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SteveboyDonatedPosted at 2022-01-25 08:21:08(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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I thought I would start a new topic on this to take away from the shout box.

No matter how I try I can't find these on Amazon Music, so took out a Tidal Trial for a listen.

Not sure what I'm listening to really how can it be different through 2 speakers in a set of headphones??

Listened to Blackstar - Sounds OK but is the mix re-imagined as advertised??
Then listened to HEATHEN - track 1 Sunday plays as Slow Burn, track 4 Slow Burn plays as Slow burn.....They can't even get this right !!!!

Taking a break b4 listening to The Next Day.

Would be interested in your thoughts.

Steveboy


NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS
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neilwilkesPosted at 2022-01-25 10:54:03(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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My thoughts are very simply worded - speaking as someone who works in discrete surround, and has done all century - 360 audio is a con trick, as what you are actually getting is something called Binaural Stereo. There are ways & ways to do this but essentially it needs to be broken down, as things are far from being as simple as promoted by the advertising.

To deal with this in the depth it deserves would require a potted history of surround sound (and I will add this if there is sufficient interest) these days being rebadged as 'immersive audio', which is a fancy way of saying 'designed for headphones' - but the trick runs even deeper than that, as the Sony 360 being pushed not only requires specific headphones - ones that have been 'analyzed' and have their HRTF (Head Related Transfer Functions) mapped and the resulting algorithm generated added to yet more required kit - the special DAC - and finally the right telephone to play it on.

It's basically Binaural Audio and it is as old as the hills, been tried many times & failed every time. This time it has Dolby & Sony pushing it and believe me setting up is expensive & unreliable as no 2 systems will ever sound the same.
[img]https://www.whathifi.com/advice/binaural-audio-what-it-how-can-you-get-it[/img]

The link above says you do not need any special gear but they are telling you porky pies - you most certainly do. It is horrendous, and not a patch on discrete 5.1 mixes on a well set up system.

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SteveboyDonatedPosted at 2022-01-25 11:35:29(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Thanks Neil great to have your input being in the business.

I'll stick to the 5.1 versions where available.

There are subtle differences in the listening on a normal set of decent headphones but nothing to write home about.

Steveboy


NO DISCUSSION I JUST WANT TO LISTEN TO THE MUSIC
WANTED
FRANKFURT 1976
1978 REHEARSALS
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BallhausDonatedPosted at 2022-01-25 16:16:02(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Thanx Neil for the clarification.
I'm not a big fan of tampering with the past - putting color on black and white movies and remixing songs. I would be equally happy if Bowie and other artist's work only existed in the album version.
But anyway, I'll stay clear of 360

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V2DavidPosted at 2022-01-25 17:27:42(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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I believe the 360 works best with headphones.  I did hear it at the Bowie 75 store in London (with actual speakers) and it was amazing.  (I listened to a few songs off Space Oddity).  Is there anywhere online to get the 5.1 mixes?  I have the Heathen SACD disc somewhere, but now sure which of my current players will play it properly.

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professormouseDonatedPosted at 2022-01-26 17:08:42(116 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Years ago there was a photo of Michael Jackson in the NME under the Chart section.
Mini-Disc was new, with Jacko 'saying', "More formats means MORE Sales ?"
It's like remixes - the classic album you have been LOving for the past 50 odd years is pants.

"Nine basic patents !"...basically.

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neilwilkesPosted at 2022-01-30 17:46:59(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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V2David wrote:

I believe the 360 works best with headphones.  I did hear it at the Bowie 75 store in London (with actual speakers) and it was amazing.  (I listened to a few songs off Space Oddity).  Is there anywhere online to get the 5.1 mixes?  I have the Heathen SACD disc somewhere, but now sure which of my current players will play it properly.

That is how these 360 were designed to be used - from a telephone into a special DAC into special headphones for best effect (such as the Sennheiser 660HD). They are m4a files that play as Binaural, and even though they seem to be 7.1.4 channel in mediainfo, the result is still a highly lossy stream that kills fidelity & is utterly dependent on the headphones, so they work better over some than others. These should be on Blu-ray audio, with not just the downsampled Atmos (Dolby restrict Atmos to 48k) but the full 24/96 discrete 5.1 mixes, preferably with DTS-X instead of Atmos too as the DTS codec allows 96k sample rates.
I could bang on about this for days but it would get tedious.....

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surflingDonatedPosted at 2022-01-31 11:57:25(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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I have the binaural recordings of "Amazonia" by Jean-Michel Jarre and "The Mix 3D" from The "3D Catalogue" Box and they are really a joy to listen to on headphones and do sound a little more spacey, but it's not like a night and day difference...

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neilwilkesPosted at 2022-01-31 13:17:07(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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surfling wrote:

I have the binaural recordings of "Amazonia" by Jean-Michel Jarre and "The Mix 3D" from The "3D Catalogue" Box and they are really a joy to listen to on headphones and do sound a little more spacey, but it's not like a night and day difference...

It's the lossy matrixed nature of these I loathe more than anything.
For example, the 360 m4a version of the Bowie albums is a pitiful 667kbps on average over 12 channels, making an average of less than 128kbps stereo - shockingly lossy.
A FLAC encoded lossless 5.1 mix comes in at 4369kbps as a comparison.....7 times more bitrate for less than half the channel count. You simply cannot throw out that much data without losing audio quality, and the 360 Binaural files are also 667kbps.
Do the maths.

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surflingDonatedPosted at 2022-02-01 12:20:54(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Just realized I was wrong calling the Kraftwerk release "binaural", it's actually a different technique called "Headphone Surround 3-D":

http://www.avidblogs.com/kraftwerk-3d-the-catalogue/

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neilwilkesPosted at 2022-02-02 09:22:53(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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surfling wrote:

Just realized I was wrong calling the Kraftwerk release "binaural", it's actually a different technique called "Headphone Surround 3-D":http://www.avidblogs.com/kraftwerk-3d-the-catalogue/

It's the same thing with a different name.

This is Quad/surround sound all over again where every label had their own proprietary matrix/discrete quad version - we had SQ, QS, EV-Stereo 4 & DynaQuad in matrix form and CD-4, UD4/UMX/BMX discrete vinyl, Q8/Q4 tape and then it went digital and things got seriously messy with Dolby Surround, Dolby ProLogic, Dolby ProLogic II, Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby True HD (aka MLP Lossless), DTS Core Audio, DTS 96/24, DTS-ES, DTS-HD (with several variants all of it's own) and so on ad nauseam.
What your player can decode depends on what has been allowed by the manufacturers, which is obscene given Sony block MLP Lossless for DVD-Audio on every player they have ever made yet have to allow Dolby True HD on their Blu-ray players even though it is the same facking thing!

ANYTHING that is played over a 2-channel system is either Ambisonic or Binaural by definition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPEG-H_3D_Audio

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V2DavidPosted at 2022-02-02 14:23:42(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Is it possible on the 360 audio, the streams from the music services are at a higher rate then the M4A versions?  It is a shame that each of the channels is so lossy with low bitrates.  This reminds me in a way of the 3D glasses for home theater where each eye was actually getting half of the resolution (formats such as SBS) in order to be able to give each eye a different picture.  While the effect was certainly great when applied properly to the right material (such as Avatar), it was often nothing more then a gimmick.  Which bring up the question.  Is 3D Audio itself trash?  Or is it just because we don't have the proper equipment or ability to play it at the higher bitrates.  What I heard at Bowie 75 certainly sounded awesome.  Then again, maybe they were using music files which the public simply still doesn't have access to.

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Todd24Posted at 2022-02-03 01:32:23(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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When you said binaural...all I could think about was Lou Reed's  Street Hassle LP. Great album but trying to put those 2 things together.... here's another failed 'next big thing'... Quadrophonic  ðŸ˜‰

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professormouseDonatedPosted at 2022-02-03 17:08:23(115 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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a-ha !
Is it 15 [?] different types of Quadraphonic on it's wiki page ??
No one remember the moans in the press about CD's giving people headaches when they first came out.
The public - with deep pockets - are more used to the concept now.

nine basic patents

If anyone knows if any of these 360 mixes are longer/shorter/different and can rip a copy - let me know xx

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neilwilkesPosted at 2022-02-06 12:43:08(114 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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professormouse wrote:

a-ha !Is it 15 [?] different types of Quadraphonic on it's wiki page ??No one remember the moans in the press about CD's giving people headaches when they first came out.The public - with deep pockets - are more used to the concept now.nine basic patents If anyone knows if any of these 360 mixes are longer/shorter/different and can rip a copy - let me know xx

With Quad you need to factor in that there were some very different types available:
1 - Matrix Quad (stereo/quad compatible and at least 4 different main formats)
2 - Discrete Quad (2 tape forms & 2 vinyl formats)
Then there were all the variants.....

It is no better in the digital age either:
Dolby Surround
Dolby ProLogic (with variants)
Dolby ProLogic II (with variants)
Circle Surround
Q-Sound
Dolby Digital (with variants)
Dolby Digital EX (with variants)
Dolby True HD/MLP Lossless (with channel count & bitrate variants)
DTS Core Audio (with channel count & bitrate variants)
DTS-ES (with channel count & bitrate variants)
DTS 96/24 (with channel count & bitrate variants)
DTS-HD High Resolution (with channel count & bitrate variants)
DTS-HD Master Audio (with channel count & bitrate variants)

If the forms were not enough variation we also have the following format types for physical media:
AC3-CD (Dolby Digital WAVE files that appear to be 16/44.1 PCM)*
DTS-CD (DTS Wave files that appear to be 16/44.1 PCM)*
DVD-Video (AC3 and DTS, all variants supported)
DVD-Audio (MLP Lossless & PCM WAVE)
Blu-ray (support varies from player to player)
Blu-ray Audio - technically this is still regular Blu-ray, as the plans for a definitive Blu-ray Audio format were quietly dropped by Sony)

* - these can also be encoded at 24-bit and a 48k sample rate for Quad/5.1 and at 24/88.2 stereo on DTS-CD)

Drop me an email, professor.

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professormouseDonatedPosted at 2022-02-10 13:04:26(114 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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I have,  :-@

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professormouseDonatedPosted at 2022-02-15 09:24:38(113 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Any genius managed to rip it to boring old 2.0 ?

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professormouseDonatedPosted at 2022-02-18 08:11:44(112 wks ago) (Bowie General / 360 REALITY AUDIO - Thoughts???)


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Blackstar is a sexier mix
that's no accident
Remember when new Singles got remixes to get club play ?
Or for the collectors too ??
The whole thing has riffs from his charm bracelet all over it but it's still, Soul. Period.
Yes, I'd LOve that box-set if someone has two messing up the place.
Girl Loves Me is STS Funk.
I'd still like of-the-era club mixes for them two albums as well.
Or two 45's at least.

Let's Dance

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