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Chit Chat Lounge > Why is there a love affair with DVD?

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paperdragonPosted at 2016-08-17 15:32:40(400 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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Letting the source determine the format sounds great to me, but I'd be hard-pressed to think of a source where I'd think "this would be best as MP2/MP3." I mean, at the very least MP4.


...and then my mind split open.
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LjohnfoxxPosted at 2016-08-17 20:10:25(400 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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We get it

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paperdragonPosted at 2016-08-19 00:29:25(400 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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I'm glad you get it. Got anything to add to the discussion? Why do you think people use DVD in instances where other formats would clearly be a better choice?


...and then my mind split open.
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willb3dPosted at 2016-08-19 03:51:00(400 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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This discussion is going nowhere, and I suggest it be locked since it can only confuse people (especially non-technical people).

The fact that many sites specifically prohibit re-encoding video material in order to avoid needless degradation has been noted.

BowieStation does not have a formal policy requiring that people do no re-encode video material, but it remains the best, safest practice.

(And I say that even though for myself, I always convert DVDs to mp4s for my own personal use. Heck I apply noise reduction and deblocking sometimes, not to mention correcting audio levels - but again, for my personal use. I also save the original DVD files, and as I've gained experience I've revisited DVDs that I'd encoded to mp4 years ago in order to do it better now - because technology is always improving. Even Handbrake has different noise reduction options now compared to even a couple years ago - options that usually mean a DVD converted to mp4 now is better than a DVD converted to mp4 a couple years ago. What a shame it would be if the original DVD files weren't available, and people only had the mp4 output that could never be improved upon. A site like BowieStation is an archive, and archival materials need to be preserved - not shrunk down to serve whatever current, transient needs one may have. Hard drive space would have been a compelling factor a few years ago - people would have gladly sacrificed quality in order to shrink a file. Now we know better, and hard drive space is not a concern any more. Things are constantly changing, which is why it is important NOT to change the availability of the original source files.)

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paperdragonPosted at 2016-08-19 16:53:24(400 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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Quote:

(And I say that even though for myself, I always convert DVDs to mp4s for my own personal use.

Cool.

Quote:

What a shame it would be if the original DVD files weren't available, and people only had the mp4 output that could never be improved upon.

Yeah, I agree. I think both (or multiple) options should be made available, or at least the process to make them for those who don't know, so thw users can decide for themselves.

Quote:

A site like BowieStation is an archive, and archival materials need to be preserved - not shrunk down to serve whatever current, transient needs one may have.

Yes, but that's my point. In most cases not using DVD isn't shrinking the file at the expense of quality. It's shrinking the file while improving quality. Of course, that depends on the source, but something recorded recently in HD Dolby would obviously be better if it was never encoded as DVD.

Quote:

This discussion is going nowhere, and I suggest it be locked

It wasn't at the beginning because many people weren't taking it seriously. Now just a couple aren't, but the rest are, and it's getting better. When I feel it's going nowhere, I'll close it. There are a couple of people I hope find it, as I'd really value their input. Maybe I'll PM them....


...and then my mind split open.
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hothcanadaPosted at 2016-08-22 18:37:54(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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I'll always take dvd over mkv, mp4 or .ts.

Has to do with long-term storage. If I can't put it on a dvdr for back-up purposes, I don't want it.
I've never met a hard drive that I'd trust further than I could throw it.

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JimmyShelterPosted at 2016-08-22 18:42:35(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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hothcanada wrote:

I'll always take dvd over mkv, mp4 or .ts.Has to do with long-term storage. If I can't put it on a dvdr for back-up purposes, I don't want it.I've never met a hard drive that I'd trust further than I could throw it.

Just don't trust your dvd-rs for too long either, they won't last forever.
Blu-rays even less.


Sometimes I think that you're too sweet to die,
Then other times I think you ought to be buried alive.
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hothcanadaPosted at 2016-08-22 18:51:56(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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JimmyShelter wrote:

Just don't trust your dvd-rs for too long either, they won't last forever.Blu-rays even less.

That's true, there really isn't a fool-proof, long term storage method.
I've found that my 10+ year old dvds still extract at better than 95/100. I do two copies of every dvd, a playable and the seeded data. If I could do it all over again, the only thing I'd do differently is I'd burn on two different brands of dvd for each disc.

Everything will probably end up in a landfill 20 years from now anyway.

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JimmyShelterPosted at 2016-08-22 19:15:18(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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hothcanada wrote:

JimmyShelter wrote:

Just don't trust your dvd-rs for too long either, they won't last forever.Blu-rays even less.

That's true, there really isn't a fool-proof, long term storage method.I've found that my 10+ year old dvds still extract at better than 95/100. I do two copies of every dvd, a playable and the seeded data. If I could do it all over again, the only thing I'd do differently is I'd burn on two different brands of dvd for each disc. Everything will probably end up in a landfill 20 years from now anyway.

yeah, they will last for long enough in a landfill  :(

it's very true though that there isn't a fool-proof way, I keep multiple copies as well, on HDD and discs usually. it's a good idea to replace them every so often before they go, but like you I've got 10+ years discs that are still ok, but I've also had them let me down after a couple of years as well. I always used TDK for years but they're crap now since they started sourcing cheap dyes from India.

Other thing people don't realise is that fast write speeds don't help, the outside edge of a disc is usually the first to go so try not to fill them too full. If you write on them then use the right sort of pen or it can migrate through the plastic. Store them in a cool dry place. And don't use crap cases that hold the disc too tight or it can cause stresses in the plastic ... there must be more but I can't think of any off-hand ...

... I'm making myself paranoid now ...

come to think of it I'll probably be in a land-fill in 2o years time anyway  B)


Sometimes I think that you're too sweet to die,
Then other times I think you ought to be buried alive.
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hothcanadaPosted at 2016-08-22 21:55:17(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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JimmyShelter wrote:

Store them in a cool dry place.... there must be more but I can't think of any off-hand ...

... I'm making myself paranoid now ...

Rooms without windows or sunlight....

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paperdragonPosted at 2016-08-23 03:27:25(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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Humidity levels, barometric pressure....

You can also burn those other formats to DVD-R if it's just for the sake of storage.


...and then my mind split open.
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JanErikPosted at 2016-08-25 02:57:16(399 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)
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When it comes to quality, my aim with BS is to have the best version available on site. If that is a Blu-Ray version of "Five Years" or a video file (MP4/MPEG/FLV/Whatever) that will be in the "archive" here on BS.

So far, all torrents posted to BS are still online and seeded, but soon there will be a cleanup where duplicate videos will no longer be seeded by staff, and when those torrents are dead for some time, they will be deleted from the tracker. E.g. only one copy (best version) of Cracked Actor will be seeded by staff and the rest will die out.

Similar cleanup will also happen in the audio sections.
Non-Bowie Audio and Video will also not be seeded by staff and deleted off the tracker when the torrents go dead.

Personally I do not even own a DVD player any more, but I still keep the DVDs as .iso files on my harddrives. Many software players (VLC and others) can play iso files and in that way give you access to the menus and chapters from the DVD. Many Media Players can also play ISO files, making it possible to navigate on the TV like the DVD.

If converted, you do not only loose some quality, but also the authoring of the DVD (Menus, chapters...).

All transcoding reduces quality, and even the conversion from MP2/MP3/AC3 audio on a DVD to Flac/Wav might reduce quality if the MP2/MP3/AC3 encoder is not perfect. If you encode from a lossy format to lossless, there might be an upgrade to the encoder in the future that might give you better sound.

When something is broadcasted in HD, it should be uploaded as HD and not degraded to SD (like DVD). A SD version is also welcome, but that will in the future be deleted off the servers when there are no more seeders.

If DVD is the best source available, that is what I want on the server, and not transcoded versions.
Most DVDs on the site are made many years ago, and should stay as DVDs unless someone re-transfer the concerts into MKVs from the original VHS tapes. That might be an upgrade quality wise and also smaller files.

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peterPosted at 2017-02-06 16:07:29(375 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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most sensible thing ive read here

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jojogunnePosted at 2017-02-10 05:55:44(375 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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Everyone here will probably laugh b/c what I'm about to mention is a rapidly dying (or already dead) medium BUT (AFA audio is concerned) I just last night listened to a 23-year-old cassette tape that I recorded myself and it sounds FANTASTIC ! Seems to be no degradation whatsoever. I keep my many many audio tapes in a cool, dark, dry environment and have had no problems. BTW, what you guys here are saying about DVDs and to a lesser extent VCR tapes scares the HELL out of me ; talk about paranoia. Thanks to JanErik & all the other great people who keep this site running ! Never forget David Bowie !!!  :-(  :D

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neilwilkesPosted at 2019-10-23 16:31:54(234 wks ago) (Chit Chat Lounge / Why is there a love affair with DVD?)


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JimmyShelter wrote:

To me the issue really is keeping the original quality and not sacrificing it just for the sake of size ... but there is another side to the coin, bloating does nothing for quality and does take up an unnecessary amount of HDD space. I see lots of video, DVD and Blu-ray, that is far bigger than it needs to be. I think this is mainly because people don't understand what they are doing and think that if it has a massive bitrate and fills the disc then it is somehow better, which is a bit like re-encoding a 128 kbps mp3 as 320 kbps. For instance I wouldn't expect 30 minutes of DVD from TV to be any bigger than 1.5 GB.Btw, I'm not a defender of all things DVD, it's more a case of letting the source determine the format, wherever possible I use lossless transfer so the output format is necessarily the same as the source.

I have only just seen this thread, and absolutely wanted to agree fully with everything Jimmy has said above as well as in his other posts. He is spot-on, and knows his stuff too (he has done the as yet best version of Ziggy at the Odeon) so I really would listen to him.
Re-encoding does nothing - the only way you might even think about re-encoding audio would be to eliminate codec chirp and save the results but once the damage has been done and audio bits have been thrown away you cannot recover them. Ever.

Poor quality video will absolutely take more bits than pristine video because you have to take the noise into account, and denoising video is a painstaking frame by frame process that is incredibly time consuming & expensive to perform.

Also, in defence of DVD - it is perfectly possible to have lossless sound on DVD. You can use up to 24-bit 96kHz in stereo, and that will still leave around 4.5Mbps for the video, yet too many labels only ever seem to issue discs with AC3 on them, which is as bad as things can get IMO and only mpeg audio is worse. There is no need to ever use AC3 in music titles, and to my mind the soundtrack is probably even more than the usual 50% of the content it should be. Let us be frank, when was the last time anyone here watched a film with the sound down? So why does the sound get a pitiful 192kbps of the available 9800kbps in a DVD bitstream?
I can assure you all our discs have PCM Stereo and never, ever AC3. You can get away with this on a film, but not for music.
YouTube is an abomination though, as is HDTV - YouTube uses AAC for audio and HDTV uses AC3.
Replicated content is king, as the sound should always be lossless on a Blu-ray as there is simply no excuse for AC3 at all any longer.

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